Shaping the Future of Talent: A Conversation with Dr. Kennedy Turner – ep.180

Welcome back to The Jali Podcast, where we honor legacy, illuminate leadership, and amplify stories that shape our communities. I’m your host, Melyssa Barrett, and today’s episode explores leadership, culture, and the future of talent in the social sector.

Joining me is Dr. Kennedy Turner, a talent consultant with DRG Talent, where she specializes in leadership searches for mission-driven and nonprofit organizations nationwide. Kennedy brings a thoughtful, human-centered approach to connecting value-aligned leaders with roles that truly matter—helping organizations strengthen their impact through the power of people.

In this conversation, Kennedy shares insights from her background in sociology and organizational culture, and her journey from Wichita, Kansas, to earning a Ph.D. in Public Policy and Sociology from the University of Michigan. We dive deep into topics like leadership transitions, cultural fit, and equity in executive search, as well as what organizations and candidates need to know in today’s evolving workplace.

We also explore Kennedy’s research on Black racial identity development among college students, and how that work continues to shape her approach to talent and leadership today. Plus, we unpack the nuances of what it means to be a Black-led organization—drawing from Whitney Parnell’s thought-provoking report, “What Does It Mean to Be Black-Led?”

From representation and belonging to joy and authenticity in leadership, this episode is a powerful reflection on how we can build more equitable, human-centered organizations that truly reflect the communities they serve.

Tune in and discover how leadership, identity, and culture intersect to shape the future of the social sector.

Don’t forget to follow, rate, and review The Jali Podcast—your feedback helps us continue to elevate voices that matter.

Melyssa Barrett: Welcome to the Jali Podcast. I’m your host, Melyssa Barrett. This podcast is for those who are interested in the conversation around equity, diversity, and inclusion. Each week I’ll be interviewing a guest who has something special to share or is actively part of building solutions in the space. Let’s get started. Hello everyone and welcome back to the Jali Podcast where we honor legacy, illuminate leadership and amplify stories that shape our communities. I’m your host, Melyssa Barrett, and today we’re diving into the world of leadership, culture, and the future of talent in the social sector. My guest today is someone who sits at the intersection of mission, equity and organizational impact. We are joined by Dr. Kennedy Turner. Pierre, a talent consultant with DRG Talent where she specializes in leadership searches for mission-driven and nonprofit organizations across the country. Kennedy brings a thoughtful human-centered approach to connecting value aligned leaders with roles that truly matter, helping organizations strengthen their impact through the power of the right people.

With a background in sociology and a deep understanding of how organizational culture is shaped, Kennedy brings both strategic acumen and genuine curiosity to her work. She’s advised diverse clients and candidates nationwide championing leadership that is both inclusive and effective, especially in a time when our communities are asking critical questions about representation, belonging, and trust. Originally from Wichita, Kansas, Kennedy earned her BA in political science from Howard University U, and later completed her PhD in public policy and sociology at the University of Michigan. Her dissertation on the battlefield using cultural schemas to navigate the racial terrain of college explored the racial identity development of black college students showcasing her ability to analyze culture, identity and systems in a way that deeply informs her work. Today she now lives in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, continuing to advance conversations about who leads, how they lead, and what equitable impact can look like across the social sector.

Today we’re talking about leadership, transitions, culture, fit, culture, add the future of the executive search and what candidates and organizations need to understand as we build more equitable workplaces. Before we dive in, don’t forget to follow, subscribe, leave a rating or review. Let us know what you think about the episode. I do actually respond when people send me messages, so your support truly helps us elevate more voices just like this. Kennedy, welcome to the Jali podcast. So I’m excited to have you join me on the jolly podcast. I feel like we’ve been waiting for a year and a half or two to have this conversation, so I’m excited that we finally have the opportunity to do so. And you’re one of those people when you go through life and you experience people and you don’t really necessarily know how they’re going to imprint your life, but you have now become this intersection in my life for how things have shifted and kind of move me into a different direction. And so I just appreciate all the support that you have given me personally as well as the board that you worked with me on because I think it was such a treasure to find and utilize you at this wonderful company called DRG. Well, thank you.

Yes. I would love for you to talk a little bit about what you do at DRG, what DRG is about, because I think it’ll kind of set the framework for our conversation.

Dr. Kennedy Turner: Yes, of course. So I am a talent consultant at DRG Talent and we are a consulting firm that partners with purpose-driven organizations, so mostly nonprofits, and we provide executive search services as well as organizational consulting work, so helping nonprofits find their leaders, their CEOs, but also sort of all of those senior level roles, chief development officers, finance, all of that as well as our organizational consulting team does strategic planning work. We do board development, we do compensation analysis and frameworks and just anything that’s people related, so job descriptions, all of that sort of stuff. And we really focus on helping organizations with all of their people related challenges, and it’s been a really good pleasure to be there. I’ve been at DRG for just over three years now.

Melyssa Barrett: That’s awesome. And I like to ask people kind of how they became the people they are today because I think it also informs us about your own perspective and lived experience. So do you want to tell us a little bit about where you are and how I to be a rock star?

Dr. Kennedy Turner: Well, thank you. Let’s see. So I’m originally from Wichita, Kansas, and I get to be a lot of people’s first black Kansan. A lot of times I’m the first person from Kansas that they meet, so there are some of us there. Born and raised in Wichita. And then I went to Howard University for undergrad aq.

My parents met at an HBCU, they met at Langston University in Langston, Oklahoma. And basically most of my family went to HBCUs and I thought I was going to be the one that didn’t. But then during that college going process, it really, it was important I think, and I realized that Howard was going to give me an opportunity that I wasn’t going to get anywhere else at any other time in my life to be in that HBCU environment. But specifically I think Howard, my sister went to Jackson State and there’s a lot of great schools, but there’s none like my alma mater. So I think it was a really important part of my development. And to be in a space where I got to see the fullness of blackness, I got to experience black people from all walks of life from all over the world.

I always say that it was a time that I got to get to know myself and not just be the smart black girl or the athletic black girl or any of those things. I just got to be me and I got to experience things where we are the majority and things were designed for us. And I think that gave me a lot of flexibility and creativity and to try to figure out who I wanted to be in the world. While I was at Howard, I also did a domestic exchange program to uc, Berkeley. I wanted to see, I think I’ve always had questions and thoughts about how different people understand their racial identity. And so going to Berkeley for a semester was just a way to kind of see what is it like at A PWI at a really large institution. And in that I got to see how the black students there were experiencing their campus and how it felt like there was so much time and energy and effort that they needed to put into finding community to help to support them as they navigated their college experience.

Whereas for me, I could join whatever club I wanted to or do whatever activity, and I always knew there would be black people there, but I didn’t have to center my college experience around that. And I just thought that was interesting, that juxtaposition from my experience to theirs. And so I think that kind of stayed with me. And then after undergrad, I went to the University of Michigan to get my PhD in public policy and sociology, and I knew that I wanted to study social mobility and how black people got to and stayed in the middle class. I was really interested in social class and reproduction of social class. I think I was interested in just seeing how are black folks able to transmit generational wealth and how are we able to, or even not even just generational wealth, but how are we able to just pass down the social status that one generation has achieved to the next.

There’s a lot out there about how we’re not able to often reproduce our class status at the same level as other groups. And so those sorts of things were really interesting to me and the policies that support that. But I kind of kept coming back to those early thoughts and ideas and questions that I’ve always had about racial identity and about college. And I think my experiences in undergrad sort of shaped that. So I ended up focusing my research more on that racial identity development of black college students and how do we make sense of what it means to be black and how does our understanding of our identity shape the way that we move through these institutions, through the majors that we choose, the courses that we join who we’re friends with, and what does that then say for our ability to achieve both economically as well as in other ways?

Are we going towards certain majors because and certain career paths because we feel like that’s our duty as black people. And then is that part of what is reproducing that inequality because we are not going towards the things that are the highest paying, we’re going towards the things that can help the most people. I don’t know. Those were the sorts of questions that were interesting to me that kind of tied together all those different areas of thought. So spent a lot of time in grad school thinking about those issues and eventually writing a dissertation about black racial identity. And I thought I wanted to be an academic. I thought I wanted to be a faculty member. But as I was doing that grind of just trying to write this dissertation, I realized I am a more social person. I’m a person who needs to see the direct impact of my work more so than just the theoretical implications of my work.

And so I started getting involved in the nonprofit space and working for a nonprofit that focuses on college access and leadership development for first generation low-income college students. And so that was a space that the things that I cared about, I could actually work on them and see the impact more directly. And so after graduating, I worked for Lead a leadership enterprise for Diverse America full-time for several years and got to work with a lot of really amazing students and helped to support their personal and professional journeys. And then in doing so, kind of started to think about, okay, what else is next? And started thinking about how I could make an impact on the nonprofit sector more broadly, which is then what led me to be A DRG. So that’s how we met of the journey.

Melyssa Barrett: No, that’s awesome. Well, and I mean there’s so many chunks of wisdom along the way

Dr. Kennedy Turner: With

Melyssa Barrett: Your story because that juxtaposition in, do I need to make as much money as possible, but I want to make an impact while I’m here on earth? How does that connect with my purpose? So it’s really interesting that you have found such a kind of perfect pathway because a lot of times it’s really difficult to find jobs that really connect you with your purpose. And I find it so interesting the process that you all go through with respect to finding C-suite leaders or any executive leadership for these positions because everybody knows nonprofits don’t necessarily have a lot of money, but yet there is that connection with their purpose. It’s just really one of those challenging things. And through the process, you guys spend a lot of time really talking about diversity even when there’s so much conversation, I’ll say going on around diversity, equity, and inclusion. How are you finding the navigation when there’s seemingly a lot of retraction in the space?

Dr. Kennedy Turner: Yeah, that is a really good question and it is definitely a question that I think we’re wrestling with internally. And a lot of the clients that I work with are wrestling with as well. And some of it is about, so there’s different positions that people are taking. I think some folks are saying, you know what? The work is the work and we will do the work, but if what we need to do to navigate this time is to call it something else and change the titles of the jobs or to use different language to sort of placate the current moment and protect and preserve our nonprofit status or not face the attacks that some other organizations are facing, then that’s what they’ll do. But the work is the work. There are other organizations out there who I think don’t have as strong as a values commitment to the work, and maybe were focusing on DEI focusing on equity issues, some of them as a result of 2020.

And so it’s like, okay, that was the wave. That was where the money was, that was where the sort of public sentiment was. So we’re going to take this stance right now, but actually that’s not really what we believe in. It is not true and core and ingrained in who we are. So now that it’s not popular, then we’re going to lose the language and we’re going to lose the work. But there are other organizations that we work with that are very boldly declaring this is who we are, this is what we care about, this is how our organization leads, and this is what we want to model both internally and who we want to be out in the world. And so we’re going to stand boldly and proudly on this, and any person that we want to hire to join our team needs to know that this is who we are and this is how we’ll operate and this is what we’re expecting of them.

And so they’re going to lean in even harder and double down on their stance around diversity. And so I think that that’s been interesting to understand how the organizations want to take it. But then I think for myself and for our role as to helping people find great talent and folks who are going to be assets and value adds to the organizations that they work with is really just important to understand what the organization’s position is and then to figure out who the very best person for that job is. So there are some candidates who are excellent at the work and could do the job, but their stance doesn’t align with the organization. And so that’s on me to realize that actually this is not going to be a good match and to be forthcoming and transparent with folks on both sides about that. So I think that it’s an important point to kind of try to understand where an organization is, where a candidate is, and make sure that they’re in alignment and that they’re being really clear about how they want to move forward through this time. And then also hopefully when the tide shift again, what’s true to both the organization and the candidate.

Melyssa Barrett: Yeah, that’s great points I think. And so interesting to me because I think there is a lot of organizations that are trying to skew younger,

Especially when it comes to executive leadership because of the value and the perspective that different generations bring, certainly with other younger generations than me, than those generations tend to be more diverse, and their perspective seems to really embrace a much more diverse landscape than some of the other generations that we’ve seen in the past. Really kind of pushing the needle a bit on what makes sense to them and how they want to show up in the world. So it’s really, really wonderful to hear your perspective in terms of trying to understand what the organization is and then how does that match actually look, because I think sometimes it may not be as obvious

Dr. Kennedy Turner: And sometimes, especially in the nonprofit sector where a lot of times the mission of the work, you might think, oh, okay, well you’re trying to improve the lives of low income students, or you’re trying to reduce environmental disparities or something like that. So you think that, oh, there are going to be then clearly you care about equity and diversity, but then when you talk to them, you might realize that, oh, actually that’s not the most important thing about diversity in terms of a candidate slate is not what’s top of mind for them. There are some clients who you might be surprised at that when they’re describing what they want in a candidate or what they want in a candidate slate, they’re not mentioning, oh, of course we need to see gender diversity or racial or ethnic diversity, or it would be really important for this role that this person has insert background here.

And so it is about following their lead and seeing what matters to them and asking them good questions about what their ideal candidate in terms of their professional background, but also their personal background. What are some things that are important to them and how does it matter for how this person will be able to do the job and help achieve the goals of the organization? Because I think sometimes folks think about these identity markers as nice to haves, but other times it really might matter for your ability to connect with your clients or to your ability to work with funders or your ability to have a certain perspective that you bring to the organization that’s currently missing that sometimes those identity markers actually are competencies or can be indications of competencies that I relevant to the job itself. So it’s interesting to see where organizations are with that and whether or not that’s something that they’re thinking about or if for their particular organization that’s not a priority for them.

Melyssa Barrett: And the prioritization process that you guys go through is really interesting. I found it really illuminating, especially when you are dealing with a board that has to kind of agree on what direction you’re going in. Let’s pause for a moment. We’ll be right back. I do want to talk a little bit about, because you talk about racial identity and I know you’ve done work in your research on racial identity, and I would love to have you talk a little bit about maybe what that research was and some of the outcomes that you saw.

Dr. Kennedy Turner: Sure, sure. So in my dissertation work, and I’m be honest sometimes going through that grad school process, it was a traumatic process, so I tried to block out points. I understand I’m not going to sound as sharp on it now as I would’ve several years ago, but it’s okay. I interviewed black college students in their freshman year and then again in their sophomore year. And these were students at a large, predominantly white institution, a large public institution. And I talked with them about what it means to be black, but in a lot of different ways. And so we talked about that broadly, but then also talked about how they grew up and how they learned about their race. So racial socialization, but then also things about how they were experiencing college. And from my research, I sort of identified three ideal types or just sort of groups that helped me to showcased these differences.

And so there was one group who I called the commanders who were the ones who being black was the most important part of their identity. It was the most salient piece of their identity. It was the thing that they led with it was they were black everywhere they go all the time, and they really organized their entire college experience around their black racial identity. So that was about making sure that they were part of the black student union or other black focused organizations. They were advocating on behalf of other black students. They were protesting the university or different situations and scenarios. Often they were thinking about wanting to date other black people and really having strong social and friendship relationships with black folks. And it was very important to them. And they felt like their purpose in college was to advance not only themselves but advance black people.

And then the second group I called the ambassadors, they were the ones who were proud to be black but proud to be black in white spaces. They felt like their job, they were excited to be the first to be a trailblazer of sorts. And so they felt like it was important for them to be in integrated spaces and so that they could represent black people to others. So that could, when they talked about their goals, it was often in high paying fields and in these other career paths where they could be one of few or one of one and that they could be a role model to other black people and that they could show non-black folks, look, it is possible for me to defy stereotypes. They talked a lot about that. And also some of the respectability things came up in this group of wanting and needing to be that perfect role model and be above reproach.

And they were sort of critical of black students who they felt like played into stereotypes because that was going against their whole thing of I want to show what’s possible at this level. And then the third group’s focus was on what everyone else is talking all this race stuff, but I don’t really see myself in that way. I’m just me. I’m not black, I’m just me. It was one of actually a quote from some of my respondents, and they focused on just sort of walking their own path a lot of times having really integrated social circles and diverse in a lot of ways with and just they felt like people think too much about race and that’s the problem and that you’ll be more successful if you think less about race. And that was their worldview and how they wanted to move through the world and move through the university.

And then it was very interesting to follow up with these students a year later and to see then how these paths were continuing to go. And so for that first group of the commanders, one of the interesting things is that the women, that group was there was a gender imbalance in this and that it was the black women were overrepresented in that group. And there were very few black men that I spoke with that had this sort of worldview and these black women were already sort of showing some of the signs of burnout and of feeling overwhelmed and feeling unsupported by the black men and feeling like that they were carrying the brunt of the labor to support the strength of the black community on campus, but also more broadly, they felt like, I’m protesting. I’m doing all of this. I’m trying to run the black community.

I’m doing this organization and that organization and I’m majoring in social work and I’m doing all of this, and where are the black men to support us and to support me? And also I’m struggling to keep up with my classes. I’m struggling to focus on the other aspects of college. And it’s becoming a lot, and there’s a lot of work and thoughts about how those same things are seen outside of the university space and for black women of all ages of carrying so much of the load. And in some ways it’s disheartening to see even those same things already, even at the early college stage. But there was also just a lot of pride and joy that came from community and they felt at peace and at home within the social world that they created for themselves amongst the other black students on campus. And they felt a lot of fulfillment in the courses they were taking and the career paths they were pursuing because they felt like this is a way for me to not just help myself, but for those around me. So that was some of that. And I don’t know, there’s a lot more, but that’s some of the briefer overview of what I spent a lot of time thinking about,

Melyssa Barrett: Which is, I mean, it’s so interesting to me because when you think about how, I mean I always feel like the age of 13 to 15, 16 when my kids were in middle school, six to eighth grade or whatever it is, their identity, I feel like really reflected formation during those years. I mean, it was like if they understood they were black or how they began to identify in society to me was right around that age group. And I think as a parent, you always are, are my kids even understanding what’s happening in the world?

Dr. Kennedy Turner: Yes.

Melyssa Barrett: Then you realize later, oh yes, they’re feeling it, they understand it, and they kind of go on to be the wonderful people that they’re going to be in the world. But I think it’s so interesting as you’re looking for talent and you see the type of research that you and others are doing in the space to really kind of understand what that pipeline is experiencing even before they get to that position or whatever they deem success looks like, because it can be definitely informed by the person that they are. And so it was really interesting to me when you sent me this report called What does it mean to Be Black led? And it’s led by Whitney Parnell, and I believe the organization is called Service Never Sleeps,

And it is in fact a black led organization that she founded. But I thought that mean this is, I don’t know if it’s a 48 page report. And it was really interesting to me because there was a lot of conversation about what black minority owned companies, especially after George Floyd’s murder and really kind of understanding what does it mean to be black led? And I thought what was so interesting about this particular report or the project in general was that it really spent more time talking about how a black led organization is transformed and really the work that goes on to transform an organization to be black led versus just leading or having leadership that’s black. As you work with executives in identifying the right leaders for these transformative roles, how does that reshape the way we might think about leadership searches? When you’re talking about black led organizations or you’ve identified A CEO say, and they are black, how do those dynamics come into play when you’re talking to these potential CEOs?

Dr. Kennedy Turner: Yeah, no, that’s a really great question, and I think that it is something that sometimes there are those organizations that, oh, we’d love to see a diverse candidate slate. We really want to see folks of all backgrounds or people who will say in particular, we’re interested in black and brown leaders. And oftentimes it’s something that the organization has never had before, but they feel like it’s the right thing to do or it’s the right time or whatever their reasoning is. But then the question is, are you interested in a leader who happens to be black, right? Or are you interested in a leader who is going to lead with a particular philosophy, a particular approach, a particular style that might be different from what you have previously experienced? And obviously we’re saying all of this and every leader is different, every black leader is different as well.

But I think it is important to note that there might be a different philosophy, a different way of being. There’s some sociological work about racialized organizations and about how there’s all of these subtle ways in terms of culture structure, ways of being that organizations themselves can become racialized. You might say like, oh, it’s not a white org. It’s just an organization that happens to have white people on the board, white people on the staff, white people that it serves, but it’s not a white org. It’s just an organization that happens to be white. But there still are ways that that organization might have become, some of these norms have become entrenched in a way that bringing in a leader who is different from that will all of a sudden reveal that and things that didn’t even know were happening. And there’s always a transition of in any leadership transition, the organization is going to shift and change because now there’s a new leader in place.

But I think it is important to understand, are we actually ready for a leader to be a black leader and bring in practices, norms, ways of being that might be different than what we’ve experienced? Or are we looking for a leader who is going to keep us at the organizational level in this same space but just have a different color of skin or a different sounding last name or something like that. And it’s hard to really know what an organization is ready for, but I like to just see some different cues from the organization that they have already done some of this work on the front end that they already, what does the board look like? Is there diversity on the board? Have they taken a close look at any of their policies and practices? Is there evidence of their commitment beyond just their words?

Do their actions align with their intentions? And then that can make you feel a little bit better that this organization is interested in embracing their new leader and everything that comes with their leadership. Because like I said, any leadership transition, there is going to be an adjustment period. There is going to be things that are different than the way that things have been done previously. But is this an organization that’s even open to the idea that you know what, we might have embraced unknowingly some aspects of white supremacist culture that we weren’t intending to, but they’re there and are we willing to confront that, to unlearn that and to undo that? Or is that something that we don’t want to even talk about? We don’t even want to pretend like that’s possible. And it’s always interesting to go through this process and see what they’re actually willing and able to do

Melyssa Barrett: Well, and some of the things that I found really interesting were the fact that it goes beyond demographics and it really highlights values and that whole people first mission because I think in some ways I’m not sure that I realized that the way I lead is so different. You think that you’re kind of similar to other people. But then, and I’m not a spring chicken here, I’ve been managing people for a long time, but it’s like you finally realize maybe there’s a real understanding of why my leadership style is the way it is because of the lived experience that I’ve had and how I show up in the world. So I felt like it was really interesting just to even be able to talk about some of the things that she found. And I think I want to say she interviewed over a hundred black executive directors, deputy directors, race equity consultants and race equity officers. So I mean, she had a pretty robust group of people that she talked to, and it is a qualitative study I should say.

So she has some very specific quotes in here from the leaders, but she really kind of highlighted five different themes with respect to leadership, equity, power, culture and climate, and kind of a personal view in terms of the health tolls and how they feel unsupported and some of the influencing factors around that. So I just found, I mean, I love that you sent me this report. I thought it was really transparent about how these black leaders are feeling as they are leading organizations and the dynamics that may exist between becoming a black led organization and just being black and leading an organization because I don’t know that we understand the nuances and probably a lot of non-black people don’t understand the nuances either. So I thought the themes and some of the things, and I’ll definitely put the report in the notes to give Whitney some support. I think it’s such an interesting view of us really starting to talk more and communicate more about the experiences that we see as leaders, and we see a lot more people in C-suite positions now, but people don’t always understand what that means and the lack of support that they often get.

Dr. Kennedy Turner: I agree, and I think that some of the things that stood out to me, one is the leading with joy and community and having that sort of a focus in the leadership style for black led organizations, and I think that that is one of the special things. I think sometimes it’s easier or more common to focus on some of the challenges that might come with a black organization or just when we talk about blackness a lot, sometimes it’s easier to talk about pain, but, but there also is a lot of p and a lot of

Melyssa Barrett: Really wellness. I mean, they talked a lot about wellness

Dr. Kennedy Turner: And the care for the whole person and the authenticity and really allowing employees and staff and everyone to show up as their full selves, and I think that there is a lot there that is really impactful and powerful too, just about being able to do mission centered work, but from a place of joy from a place, not from a place of deficit or lack, but a place of abundance and a place of excitement and community versus competition, I think is another way that from what’s in this report and just from my experience, I think that we see that is really exciting and powerful for these organizations.

Melyssa Barrett: And I’m so glad that you brought that up because I think just even the ability to communicate with the whole person, I think a lot of times just in the grind of work, we get a lot of times so focused on the work, we forget about the people, what they may be going through, and how we as leaders need to understand how we impact people’s lives. There was a comment in the report that talked about one who said they were so concerned about how their people were managing their workload, that they decided to reduce everybody’s work hours to 32 hours. And as somebody that’s focused on creating not only more business but more life, we’re only here for a short period of time, and I hope that a lot of leaders move away from this whole grind workaholic thing and really kind of focus on how do I want, what do I want my life to look like and how do I design the life that I truly want instead of getting a job moving up the ladder and then you’re retired and looking around trying to figure out what did I do with my life? Yes,

Dr. Kennedy Turner: For sure, for sure. Yeah. It is something that I think I’m coming to understand or continuing to understand as well just about that work is part of life and work is something that, just bringing it back to talking to black students about their goals and a lot of times them feeling the pressure to I have to do something that is going to improve the lives of my community. And I’ve kind of come to realize that you want to live a life that is on purpose, a life that is in alignment with your purpose. And your work might be that your work could be part of that. You might decide that it is important for me to work for an organization that is going to support a mission that I care about or is going to fill a function in my community that I know needs to be there.

Or you might decide that what’s important to me is that my work gives me the money and the time and the flexibility to then go and use my off hours to live out the purpose that I have for myself. And either way or however it looks is fine. But I think, yeah, I like the fact that employers and organizations are starting to understand that a little bit more and starting to understand that it’s important that we both pay our folks a living wage so that they can meet their basic needs, but also that they can have the time and the flexibility and the energy to live the full life that they want to lead and that their work is part of them living their purpose, but it does not have to be the entire thing.

Melyssa Barrett: Yes, absolutely. Well, and as we close out with some of these final thoughts, I know I could literally talk to you for hours. Can you talk a little bit about, as we close out, and I don’t want to get caught up into politics or anything, but how do you address just the exhaustion around the work when it comes to leadership and the identification of leaders in the space really no matter what color they are in terms of there just seems to be an exhaustion of so many things happening and hitting and with artificial intelligence and the adaptive nature of strategy and all of that. How do you focus on leaders? I know you guys also do some coaching as well. Are there things that you could advise that would help CEOs in the space deal with the constant barrage of not only dynamics, but information and the speed of that?

Dr. Kennedy Turner: Yeah, that’s a very good question, and it is one that I think we’re all still trying to figure out what to do and how to do it. I think I’ll take it from the attack of the job seekers, if I can narrow it down a little bit because I spent a lot of time speaking to folks who are looking for a job and trying to find what’s next for them in their career while also dealing with all of these things that you’re mentioning, politics and just the geopolitical, just the world. And I think that that experience itself of trying to identify what’s next for you in your career and dealing with these things that we’re talking about of understanding how it is in alignment with your purpose. Is it going to meet my financial needs and my wellness needs and my life as a whole and be in alignment there, but also these bills is coming due tomorrow, so I don’t got all day to try to find this job, but these recruiters are telling me this process is going to be months long.

I think that the job seeking process itself is a very stressful process. It’s one that can be sort of unclear. You just send your resume out into the ether. You don’t know if anything is going to happen. You don’t know if that organization is ever going to call you back. And I think that there are a lot of wellness practices that needs to be incorporated into even just the job seeking. I think that one is being really clear about what it is that you’re looking for, what your ideal goal is and what your non-negotiables are, both in terms of for yourself of what your purpose is and that sort of internal values, but then also what are the needs that I need to meet in terms of a certain salary or a certain job title or a certain mission or a certain, I think having really clear parameters that you can say of what my must haves are and then what my nice to haves or maybes are so that when an opportunity does come up, you can assess that opportunity against this standard that you have already identified for yourself.

And so you’re not just applying super wildly or blindly to things. And then I think it really is important to have a lot of introspection and clarity around your story, being able to tell your story clearly and compellingly and being effective in saying, this is who I am, these are the types of problems that I solve. This is evidence of my results and this is what I want to do next. Being able to clearly articulate that, and that’ll both help in terms of how a person shows up in the interview, how a person navigates the job search, but also to help a person have some control and power and be empowered throughout it again so that they feel like they’re driving their job search and the world is not driving them. So there’s a lot more that I could say about that too, but I think that as we are in an ever-changing, very uncertain world where as we’ve sort of talked about a lot throughout this conversation where what was in fashion five years ago is no longer there, and you might feel like, am I still desirable? Does anybody want me? Is AI going to just take my job from me? Being really clear about those elements of who you are, what it is that you want and what it is that you bring to the table, I think can be that centering process that you need to keep you going and keep moving through a very uncertain world for sure.

Melyssa Barrett: Wow, that’s powerful. That is awesome. Well, thank you so much, Kennedy, for joining me. I hope we get to do this again because yes, part two, yes, we can spend some more time talking about this for sure. I feel like we just barely scratched the surface, and I love the perspective that you bring not only to the job seeker, but also to the organizations that are seeking those talented individuals because it is a process of transformation on both sides of the equation. And I think boards, there’s a lot of boards that have trouble maturing, and so I love the work that you guys are doing. I’m so grateful for DRG and their focus on the nonprofit space and the ability to really identify that. So I just want to publicly say how much I appreciate all of that, and I look forward to our next conversation for sure.

Dr. Kennedy Turner: Yes, of course. Thank you so much for this opportunity to tell a little bit more of my story, and always a pleasure to talk to you, and yeah, definitely happy to connect always with organizations that are looking to hire great folks or for folks who are looking for their next role in the nonprofit sector. For sure.

Melyssa Barrett: Thanks for joining me on the Jali Podcast. Please subscribe so you won’t miss an episode. See you next week.