Intentionality & DEI – Ep.41

Kathy Kimotek discusses the importance of intentionality when leveraging Diversity, Equity and Inclusion. Kimotek shares best practices and marketing tips to encourage representation amongst the workplace and consumers, and unpacks the responsibility companies have to remain accountable when promoting DEI. 

Melyssa Barrett:  Welcome to the Jali podcast. I’m your host, Melyssa Barrett. This podcast is for those who are interested in the conversation around diversity, inclusion, and equity. Each week, I’ll be interviewing a guest who has something special to share or is actively part of building solutions in this space. Let’s get started.

Kathryn Kimotek is an influential strategic marketer, with years of distinguished performance in the financial services, media publishing, insurance, and fintech industries. While she may have been new to the payments industry in 2017, when she joined TSYS, a global payments company, she was certainly not new to the small business merchant audience. Prior to working in payments, she had enjoyed a six-year tenure at Inc. And Fast Company. At TSYS, she joined as a channel marketing strategist for financial institutions in their US payments and payroll division, leading, conceptualizing, and executing strategic marketing initiatives focused on engaging customers, both financial institution partners and merchants, utilizing a targeted data driven approach.

She’s an advocate in the advancement of women and women of color in the payments and Fintech industries and currently serves as a member of the president’s advisory council for WNET, Women’s Network and Electronic Transactions. In 2019, she launched the local New York chapter for the Global Payments Women’s Network. In 2021, she was selected as part of the Money 20/20 RiseUp cohort, representing 30 women that are looking to advance their careers in the fintech industry.

Kathy proudly hails from New York, is a wife and mother of two boys and two fur boys. She did her undergraduate studies at Hunter College and her graduate studies at New York University. She is a self-described foodie and ancestry hunter, and enjoys walks and road trips with her family.

All right, so this week I am pleased to have Kathy Kimotek join me, and I’m so encouraged by you. I’ve met you at a… I met you on the phone virtually, but had the pleasure of meeting you in person at the WNET conference, and you have just held this special place of my heart ever since. I’m so glad we get to have this conversation. I know you’re doing wonderful things in the name of WNET as well when it comes to diversity, equity, and inclusion, but I figured we would start by maybe you just telling us a little bit about your journey and how you have come to be where you are.

Kathy Kimotek:  Awesome. So, yes, my journey has been quite an evolution, personal, professional, even industry. I am not a native to the payments industry. So, when you think of WNET, Women’s Network and Electronic Transactions primarily, women in the payments industry. I joined TSYS in 2017, coming from a career in insurance, previously at AIG and then also publishing, previously at Mansueto Ventures, which are the publishers of Inc. And Fast Company magazines. So, varied industry experience and marketing has taken me through that industry journey. So where I’m a very good marketer, I’m able to then apply that to the different audiences that I work with across the different industries. So, that’s been an evolution of a journey in terms of industry for sure.

Personally, I am a mom of two boys. I’m married to my husband for 13 years now. I am a Queens girl, Queens, New York.

Melyssa Barrett:  All right.

Kathy Kimotek:  Now live on Long Island, so kind of did that New York City to the suburb transition. But my heart is a New Yorker, always from the city. I grew up going to New York City public schools. Primarily my education was public, for the most part, until I went for my master’s of science in integrated marketing at NYU.

Melyssa Barrett:  That’s awesome.

Kathy Kimotek: So again, evolution, public to private, it’s consistent evolution. I feel like that’s been the theme that everyone speaks about when they reflect on 2020 and 2021. When you think about life, life is an evolution in general. Evolution of thought, evolution who you see yourself as. You never lose your base, your foundation, but you evolve.

Melyssa Barrett:  Yeah. That must be where our connection is. I was born in the Bronx, so we got to be. There’s New York in both of us somewhere.

Kathy Kimotek:  Yep. It speaks to us.

Melyssa Barrett:  That’s awesome. That’s awesome. In some of the work that you’re doing, I know you have spent time at companies, both that may have not had diversity, equity, and inclusion, as well as companies where you have launched into it, and helped them create DEI initiatives. What are some of the challenges and best practices as it relates to going into a company that maybe doesn’t have it, and maybe you’re the only one, or you’re trying to initiate something there?

Kathy Kimotek: It’s interesting. When you think of DEI as a, just even as a verb, because these are verbs. Something that we have to take action on, work at, do, be intentional about, and they mean different things. Through my career journey, I’ve been at companies where it almost felt like you had to be a part of an exclusive club to be invited to join a certain initiative or there was nothing at all, and honestly, until recently, it hasn’t really been seen as anything more than HR function as a number, as a ticker. And I say that respectfully as well, considering that has its own value, outside of when you think about DEI as a verb, or verbs, I should say.

Being in a company that doesn’t have initiative and being an only or a percentage of only, group, right, being part of that 3%. Latinos account for 30% of the population based on US census, we’re the largest minority group. I have been at companies where I am one of 3%, when you think of the population to then what’s being represented in the company, it’s staggering. And being that voice and that representation is also sometimes, it weighs on you. How do I represent myself? I’m representing myself as a woman, as a Latina, as you know someone that comes from New York city as someone that went through primarily a public education system.

And you start thinking about all these things. And I always have to center myself. I’m presenting myself as Kathy, the person, the professional, the segment expert, because if I let myself live in the only language, I also then fall into feeling the weight and I need to feel the weight, but I also need to present where we become best in class as an only, and I want to be the best because of me, not just because I represent some of the only.

Melyssa Barrett:  I love that.

Kathy Kimotek: So it’s that constant toggling of wanting to be the best personally. But also understanding that I have a responsibility in how I represent myself and how I speak, in what I do and who I look to to bring alongside me, alongside me, pull them up and even launch them forward, right. Because I’m always happy to see those that have come along with me, succeed even beyond where I am. It’s a personal story to me. So, it weighs on you, but you also become aware of it. And then you become intentional about how you approach it. To the point of representing, I represent myself in on LinkedIn. I represent myself on in RiseUP, right. How do I keep this voice going to encourage others, to make them feel welcome, to not make them feel like the only, because we’re becoming more aware that there are more of us than we thought, and certainly we’re trying to help each other achieve our goals. And I say each other across a variety, again, a variety of different segments, woman, Latina, woman of color, right.

Because I’m not just a Latina, I’m a woman of color. And so I look to my other sisters that are woman of color as well. As a Latina, I think about right, I look very Latina and I know you are Latina also and most people would not traditionally think of you as Latina. Because you are Afro-Latina. And then there are Latinas that look Anglo-Latina or much more and you think about, there are various situations where we encounter different things as woman of color who can fit into different categories. So, long-winded answer here but it’s always constantly thinking of how do I represent myself as the individual and how do I represent myself as that person that has the responsibility of bringing others along with me, so that I am not the only.

Melyssa Barrett:  Yeah. And even starting, I think you’re focused on starting Latinx group.

Kathy Kimotek: Yeah. So, at WNET, I’m the co-chair for the Hispanic Latino diversity and equity inclusion group.

Melyssa Barrett:  Fantastic. And we know that in payments technology, financial services, there tends to be very few Latinx or people of color in general in the industry. So I know educating people, making sure they’re aware of what those positions look like and how we can give back. I think one of the things I love about WNET is there is such a sisterhood across the spectrum of position, so whether you have CEOs or senior vice presidents or an analyst sitting next to you, they are just so giving of their expertise, their wisdom, their name, their, all of those things. They’re very giving when it comes to talking to people about their own process and thoughts.

Kathy Kimotek:  When you think about equity inclusion specifically, we’re living it, right. It’s a practice. It’s intentional. We’re living it. It is that sisterhood that drew me to WNET. It is that of opportunity to bloom and come into my own. That really has made me want to even give back even more to that organization. I always consider myself a late bloomer. I kind of do things in my own time. Like I’ve spoken, I’ve evolved professionally, personally, and even through industry. And it’s always been at my own time. And I feel in our industry, we’re being intentional about the equity inclusion part of the DEI. We’re trying. It’s not perfect. It’s a work in progress. There’s probably more missteps than steps forward, but we’re tumbling through it and WNET helps with that.

It is that accessibility, that seat at the table, that voice. I don’t feel like I can’t reach out to someone that isn’t part of WNET. I don’t feel that I’m unreachable because of wherever I am in my station of life. I welcome it. And I feel that from the broader group at WNET, with the intentionality that they’re taking, the different inclusion groups. Ensuring that women or people who identify as women have a voice in our industry. Ensuring that that access is there. I have yet to meet someone that does not live by being accessible in that group. Being approachable. Being welcoming. Willing to have conversations about anything, whether it’s DEI or what your next step should be in your career, salary expectations. I mean, we as women don’t really talk about salaries and then as woman of color, even less, it’s almost like am I asking for too much?

Am I asking too much? Am I really worth it? And as women, we go through that. And then as woman of color, we go through that even more, because we feel like, let me work the 70 hours a week and somebody will see me. And you know what, working hard is great. You work hard, I’m all for that. You get what you work for, you don’t get what you wish for, but at the same token, you need to have the knowledge of what you’re working for and be intentional that way as well. So, WNET has really helped me step into, I want to say step into my power, right. And maybe that’s not the right word, maybe it is, but really step into my voice. I step into who I am, what I want to do, who I want to be and what I want to do for other people.

Melyssa Barrett:  Yeah. And I think you can have those real conversations.

Kathy Kimotek:  Oh, absolutely.

Melyssa Barrett:  With people to really understand what does that job really entail? Is it something I really want or? And I think a lot of times what’s nice is not only do you question, do I think I can do this job or whether I should apply for it, but it’s so wonderful having somebody’s voice just encouraging. And I think, the sisterhood at WNET within the payment technology space for sure, electronic transactions, they are all about, it’s like a big hug.

Kathy Kimotek:  It is. It’s like a big hug.

Melyssa Barrett:  But they’re also so open to learning. Like everybody I meet is so open to learning and understanding that it is a journey, it’s not perfect, but we all bring something. Whether you’re a woman at WNET or a man who might be in the minority at one of those meetings, they really kind of connect you in a way that is just gratifying.

Kathy Kimotek: I have to say, you mentioned men. And I have to see this last time, there were more men than the previous time. So, I had the benefit of attending in 2019 and then attending this past year in 2021. And it was great to see that there were more men. Great to see that there were men there that weren’t, I want to say obligated to go as a checkbox, just being very intentional about being there. There’s one particular person that comes into mind and I want to get his name absolutely correct. They know his first name, but I want to give you his last name, Derry Scott. He was there and he was passionate. And his passion just exuded to everyone he spoke to, passionate about DEI efforts, passionate about women, passionate about lifting as he rises.

And I know I stood out to you. He stood out to me as a male in a space where, he is a black man in a Women’s Network in Electronic Transactions leadership summit event, where while there are other women of color there, I mean it, there are so many white women, it’s still very much of the industry. And so I left absolutely in awe of him, his passion. I will encourage you to invite him to speak on your podcast as well.

Melyssa Barrett:  Yeah. And I met him, so I know exactly who you’re talking about because he did impress me. I’m sure he must have talked to at least almost every woman at that conference because he had the energy that I have not seen before. Yeah. I’m sure we’re going to see a lot more from him, so.

Kathy Kimotek: It was great to see that. It was great to see that passion, that camaraderie, right. That I’m here for you to lean on me and I’m leaning on you and we’re going to do this work and we’re going to take this action and we’re going to make these verbs reality and be intentional and see it come from a man.

Melyssa Barrett:  Yes. Yeah.

Kathy Kimotek: It’s not to negate any of the women in that world, in my life. It was just, it was noteworthy for this event for sure.

Melyssa Barrett:  Yeah. That’s great. So then, tell us a little bit about some of the DEI initiatives. Because I know you have started some in your roles in some of the companies that you’ve been in and then in your marketing role, how you’ve pulled in diversity, equity, and inclusion into those conversations.

Kathy Kimotek: So when I was at TSYS and I really have to thank TSYS, and I have to thank the connection that they had with WNET. Again, propelling me, for helping me bloom, really coming into myself. So at the time that I joined TSYS, I had joined in one of their acquired offices on Long Island, New York, and they didn’t really have a chapter of what TSYS called the thread at the time. And it really was, it was a thread that kind of holds you together as women in the industry and women at TSYS. And they had a really strong connection with WNET and a membership, a free membership included with that. And so my manager at that time, someone that I consider a mentor as well, Lisa Ludolf, she introduced me to the thread and to WNET and through her, I started exploring what WNET had to offer, who the thread was.

And eventually in 2019 with Natalie O’Donnell. So, Natalie Silva O’Donnell, we started thinking about how do we bring this to the New York office and that Natalie moved on to a different position. And she’d been a great success in her roles, but I took on launching the thread in our Melville, New York office. And so what does that mean? How do we promote it? How do we get engagement? How do we bring involvement overall, the women, but also for the men in our office, that office was primarily male. It was finance, it was sales. And then you had the marketing side of it, which was the primarily female side. But you had women in finance that were there in our finance department. So, it was starting to bring that group together under the thread, but also establishing it as its own chapter.

We are our own chapter. We are the New York chapter. So, it was great to work on that launch and to launch it. It was my baby. I had a committee of seven, two of them were men. So, Ben Raper and Chris Canal, and they raised their hand. They were like, yeah, we want to be part of this. I had, the others were women in my group, Stephanie, Heman Junta, Tammy Aviles, and Maria Crespo and Michelle Matara, they all great thought leaders. They wanted to see this grow. We became Global Payments Women’s Network when the merger of TSYS and Global happened and happily, it’s still part of the network. Even though we don’t necessarily have a physical office in New York anymore, we have a presence and that presence is represented at Global Payments, even now that I’ve left. So, I moved on from TSYS Global Payments and moved over to BillGO, which is a bill payment startup out of Fort Collins, Colorado and fintechs by nature tend to be a little bit more focused on inclusivity in diversity, but they try to live it in their culture

I will say that. So, I am moving on from BillGO now, but they are keenly aware of my advocacy for women at BillGO, from an engineering standpoint to a programmer standpoint, even from marketing standpoint. We have a fairly decent representation that can be aligned there. So, I hope that some of the thoughts that I’ve given them around it do progress into action, but as a culture themselves, they do try to actively engage. And I’ve seen that in a lot of fintechs. And honestly, I’ve seen it in trying to address the bro culture of the fintechs as well. Because there’s sort of this bro philosophy in the tech space that as a founder, as fintech startups, they have to try to be more intentional about that. And you see that in the Money 20/20 show where you have Money 20/20 now has two different programs around their do it better programming, which is RiseUp, primarily focused on women or people who identify as women.

And then you amplify it, which was this inaugural year, this past year and that is for voices in DEI and who’s really leading those efforts at a lot of these different fintechs and big tech companies as well. So, it’s an array that I experience as someone that participates, watches, and launches. So, we all fill these different roles. I’m a doer, I’m a launcher, and I am active.

Melyssa Barrett:  I love that. Participate, watch, and launch. You take one thing away. Do that.

Kathy Kimotek:  Add another one, learn as well.

Melyssa Barrett:  Yes. It’s a continuous learning, right?

Kathy Kimotek:  It’s. It’s.

Melyssa Barrett:  That’s fantastic.

Kathy Kimotek:  And I learn also by watching people who I admire and consider my peers and also my peer mentors and those that are looking to see women succeed. So, Stephanie Foster and Genevieve Dozier, those two in particular have been really, really instrumental in being that voice behind me saying, you got this, you can do this, apply to rise up. Go for the job. Let me be that person that says your name in a room when you’re not there. And that’s powerful. And that’s something that I want to do and do for those around me. You kind of want to mimic the behaviors that are good in your life. And that’s what they bring to me.

Melyssa Barrett:  Yeah. And that’s why I wanted to do this because there’s so many people doing such great work and just to be able to celebrate when I’m celebrating you, you’re bringing all these people with your journey as well. So, we are celebrating all of those. So, then-

Kathy Kimotek:  We have to do is celebrate those that are in our lives, that help us, that encourage us, and that challenge us. If we don’t say their name, then who will?

Melyssa Barrett:  That’s right. I love it. Let’s pause for a moment. We’ll be right back. So, then are there specific things maybe in marketing that you want to touch on?

Kathy Kimotek: So marketing, when you think of marketing, you think of, I always say you think of the pretty pictures and that’s not the marketing or the marketer that I am. I’m more of the numbers marketer. I want to make sure that I attribute revenue to what I’m doing. That I’m part of that panel conversation and what marketing affects there but some of it is representation, how you represent your product and how you represent who you are and images that you use, the intentionality behind the imagery and language that you use as well. So that’s something that when you think of an audience, right, and you think of your target audience, you want to make sure that you resonate with them, but at the same token, you also want to make them think. And sometimes it’s as simple as an image. It’s as simple as having Latina in at a board table, right?

It’s as simple as having collaboration between different groups in an image, seeing sort of the spectrum world is. It’s just not a monochromatic world anymore. It never has been, but we need to represent that as a marketing group, as a marketing team, as a marketer, we need to be intentional with the language that we use and how we drive the message that we want, but also challenge the notions that exist out there. And it’s a fine line to toggle because we are talking about numbers. We are talking about revenue and some audiences may or may not be receptive to being pushed certain ways. But if you don’t try, you have to at least try. And again, it goes back to when you think of DEI, they’re verbs. It’s not, these are not complacent words. It’s about the intentionality behind them. So as a marketer, you need to bring that intentionality into what you produce.

Melyssa Barrett:  And I think it’s so important when we think about, I mean, a lot of what you’re talking about is just the creativity component, because especially when you might be reaching out to new audiences or maybe nurturing an audience that you’ve had in a different way, but being able to get creative with whether it be image or language, really can make a whole difference. I mean, I know my husband years ago, I mean, obviously when he was little, he was introduced to books and he’s an average reader, but for him just seeing a book with a little boy on it that looked like him made all the difference in the world. And he then became this really avid reader, got into history, all of those things, but it’s amazing how something, just an image as you’re talking about can have a much more significant impact when you can see yourself in a particular space that maybe you hadn’t seen someone in before. I mean, somebody that looks like me or you.

Kathy Kimotek:  It’s so true. I think about the work that Disney has done and I say that, I have two boys, their ages, 11 and half and 10, and they’re half white and they’re half Latino. My husband is a white man, but they look like me. And so, we’ve had to have conversations already of you look like mommy, you don’t look like daddy. And so, you may or may not be viewed in the same way as your father and more so viewed as me. And so when we’ve watched movies like Coco. I’m part Mexican heritage. All of that resonated with me. That whole movie resonated with me. And I was able to explain to them a lot of the cultural nuances and innuendo behind it. And I was really impressed with the intentionality that Disney took in looking at the Mexican culture and looking at the golden age of cinema from Mexico.

The Pedro Infantes and representing them in that movie. And I knew who they were, even if maybe the broader group did not. I was able to tell my children that’s who they’re representing there. And most recently with Encanto, which is based in Columbia and my mother is from Ecuador and her grandfather was from Columbia. And so, understanding a lot of those south American nuances, I’m able to explain that to my children. And I think to the intentionality that Disney brought into those movies through Lin-Manuel Miranda, who’s not neither Mexican nor South American. He is Puerto Rican. He’s Boricua. Raised on the upper west side, like the intentionality that he takes. Because not all Latinos are, have the same or the same inferences or references culturally either. So, it’s that intentionality, if I could say anything about evolution, it’s the intentionality behind it drives the evolution.

Melyssa Barrett:  Yeah. But it’s almost like you have to have the question in order to have the intention. The curiosity about it is intentional and that’s what’s so significant. And so, when you’re talking to CEOs or people that are focused on diversity, equity, and inclusion, it is a matter of creating that curiosity in your own mind so that you can ask questions and inquire and learn about things that you don’t know. But a lot of times, if we don’t ask, we never will know.

Kathy Kimotek: No. If we don’t know about, we don’t speak. There’s no way to bring up the question. At a certain point, if we don’t make ourselves visible, then how do we exist to even be a question to be asked about?

Melyssa Barrett:  Absolutely.

Kathy Kimotek:  But I think the fact that we’re more visible or we’re being more intentional with our visibility is bringing up more of the questions and how do I do better? And then also questioning the how do I do better? You’re asking me how you can do better, but how are you going to really do better other than words. As a country, we speak about this awakening that we had after George Floyd, but are we holding all the corporations that stood behind people of color at that time accountable for how they’re really doing better? Are those diversity numbers?

Melyssa Barrett:  Or are they doing better?

Kathy Kimotek: Are those diversity numbers changing? Are those calories now being put on a land-level playing field? And when I say diversity numbers, again, I’m talking from that HR lens of…

Melyssa Barrett:  Like representation.

Kathy Kimotek: I have X amount of African Americans. I have X amount of Latinos, but then let’s talk about the equity and inclusion part. Are we bringing up the V-ball in those groups within our organizations to have equity, to have a voice and a seat at the table to present those different ideas, so that we can ask questions. And so, it’s also understanding as people that are being brought into that table saying, I have my philosophy, you have yours. We may not even be on the same level playing field, but let’s listen to each other out. To me that’s an equitable conversation. I don’t have to agree with everything that you say, but just bring me to the table, so I can have a say, include me in that conversation. Let me be part of that decision making process. It may not entirely be what I want, but at least I had a voice in it, or it may be what I want because I’ve made you think about what’s really best or you’ve made me think about what’s really best.

So, I think that’s where are those companies really doing that? Are those organizations? So, not just companies, organizations doing that, are we as a collective holding each other accountable in that way, without speaking to our own ground? Like I’m right, you’re wrong. And this is how it is. We’re never going to get anywhere. We’ve had hundreds of years of that. We need to do better also.

Melyssa Barrett:  And I think-

Kathy Kimotek:  We need to lead by example.

Melyssa Barrett:  And I think that accountability also forces us to drive resources around it because it doesn’t just magically happen either.

Kathy Kimotek: And it’s quantifying it. I just told you that as a marketer, I don’t necessarily think of myself as a pretty pictures person. I want to make sure that I’m always aligned to revenue. Data tells the story. I should, in a country that has representatives, 30% Latino population of the overall population for a company to only have 3% is not acceptable.

And it’s saying that, how do I do better? We need to be intentional in your recruiting practices. If you’re based in a location that is not very diverse, we’ll call it per se, then you need to be intentional when remote roles open up, go to organizations that have a pool. Because there is a pool. It’s not that there is no pool. There is. It’s a matter of being, again intentional with looking for it. So, yeah.

Melyssa Barrett:  You can find us if you look.

Kathy Kimotek: I started getting passionate and going down tangent, so please feel free to rein me in with.

Melyssa Barrett:  No, this is great. This is great. I think as we move into this new pandemic year, shall I say? There are a lot of remote opportunities and I think companies are being a lot more flexible as they’re thinking about whether you need to be in the office, why you need to be in the office, what do you do when you’re in the office? But I do think there are challenges when it comes to promotion and whether you’re remote or whether you’re in-person and how that culture in a company works. Because as you know there are dynamics and a lot of times when you’re not in somebody’s face, they forget and you’ve listed a lot of names here for people that have touched you and created opportunity for you. A lot of times when in your remote, it’s harder to get that connection in a company from a promotion standpoint. And so I think a lot of, we need to just be conscious about what that power dynamic looks like as we shift into remote roles. And certainly as we’re trying to strive for equity and inclusion.

Kathy Kimotek: Absolutely. I mean, I’ve definitely heard from leaders that they really will only promote people that are in the office. I’ve gone up to bat even for myself and said because I’m remote that means that I’m not promotable that means that I can’t go into leadership. And there’s very seldom an answer to that, especially when you address it head-on. Because nobody wants to have that conversation. But you need to address it head-on sometimes because I’m not particularly in an office does that mean that I don’t bring value to a group. I will say that I think there’s a lot more grace around remote workers. There’s a lot more understanding. I do think we still have a long way to go even after the pandemic, in terms of when it comes to remote employees, employee choice, the availability of the different work environments. I do not think that all jobs belong at home, but at the same token, there are quite many that do, or that can be hybrid in the very least.

And then it becomes a matter of productivity and really assessing your teams and the value that they bring overall in the locations that they bring it. So, it’s not one size fits all and it’s work, it’s work that companies will have to do to ensure that their individuals are taken care of. But understanding that they’re not going to please everyone either. But again, it’s that intentionality, being aware, hey, I have Kathy [inaudible] Fintech, she works remote in New York. And these are the numbers that she’s brought at the end of the year. This is what she’s accomplished. Yeah. Maybe I need to put her into a leadership role. She works with her peers. She has influence over the decisions. Like maybe this is someone that needs to lead, even though it’s remote, she’s already doing that.

And so, it’s being intentional about how you look at people. And when you think about large organizations like a Visa, for example, or I was at TSYS, now Global Payments, there are multiple locations. I mean, when I started at TSYS, I reported into Lisa Ludolf, she’s in Arizona. I was physically in an office, but I was not physically in her office.

Melyssa Barrett:  Right.

Kathy Kimotek:  So, you think about the value that remote brings. It brings, there are individuals that succeed at that even in large organizations and we do it daily. So for it to be an issue to me, it’s a non-issue if you’re willing to have someone report into an office in California and that person’s in Chicago, what’s the difference whether they’re in their home office and you are in California, so and food for thought.

Melyssa Barrett: Yes. Absolutely. These are why we have these conversations. There are multiple sides, I think, perspectives from different people. And I love just being able to create some ways to think about it, some discussion points. And so, I just want to thank you for joining me today and yes, I look forward to continuing to work with you both in WNET and in elsewhere. So, wishing you the very best in your new position as well.

Kathy Kimotek: Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it. And thank you for being this voice, for having this podcast, for using your platform. So, thank you for doing and being intentional about the work you do.

Melyssa Barrett:  Thank you so much.

Kathy Kimotek:  I’d give you a hug if I could.

Melyssa Barrett:  Virtual hug. Virtual hug. Thanks Kathy.

Kathy Kimotek:  Thank you.

Melyssa Barrett:  Thanks for joining me on Jali podcast. Please subscribe, so you won’t miss an episode. See you next week.